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This Mr. Mackensie King did at his second interview on the following day, the 10th March, when much of the ground covered on the previous day was again traversed and the whole subject discussed in all its bearings.
Eventually Mr. Mackenzie King, coming to close quarters with Liang Ta-jén, asked him pointedly whether China could restrict her own emigration. Mr. Liang met this by saying that Canada could refuse to admit Chinese beyond a certain number. After, however, the Japanese system had been explained to him, Mr. Liang expressed the opinion that the Chinese Government might adopt the plan of issuing passports to a certain number of emigrants, and that Canada might refuse admission to any Chinese who came without passports.
This struck me as likely to prove the turning point of the negotiations, which have been conducted with admirable skill, patience, and ability by Mr. Mackenzie King, Various documents bearing on the question have been supplied to Liang Ta-jên by Mr. Mackenzie King, as stated in the latter's letter, copy of which is also inclosed. His Excellency will thus be fully informed in view of further discussion of the subject. Another interview takes place to-day, and although a successful issue is by no means assured, the ground has been so carefully prepared and the position of the Canadian Government so fully explained, that even should the present attempt to arrive at an arrangement fail, an eventual solution has been greatly facilitated.
I have, &c. (Signed)
Inclosure 1 in No. 1.
J. N. JORDAN,
Memorandum of Interview with Acting President of Wai-uu Pu, March 9, 1999,
THE first interview took place at the offices of the Wai-wu Pu (the Chinese Board of Foreign Affairs), on the afternoon of the 9th March. There were present, representing the Government of China, his Excellency Mr. Liang Tun-yen, Acting President of the Wai-wu Pu, and three Secretaries. Representing the Imperial Government and the Government of Canada, his Excellency Sir John Jordan, K,C.M.G., British Minister; Mr. C. W. Campbell, C.M.G., Chinese Secretary of the British Legation; my private secretary, Mr. F. W. Giddens, and myself.
I was introduced to Mr. Liang by Sir John Jordan as a member of the Parlia ment of Canada, and the Representative of the Dominion Government. In his words of introduction Sir John mentioned having previously spoken of my intended visit, and remarked that he thought it would be best for me to explain its object in my own words. Sir John also made reference to the manner in which Canada had settled the claims of the Chinese residents of Vancouver for losses sustained at the time of the anti-Asiatic riots in September 1907, and referred to me as having been the Commissioner appointed to assess the losses, and whose award had been accepted by the Canadian Government.
Having thanked Sir John Jordan for his introduction, and Mr. Liang for receiving me ou behalf of the Chinese Government, and having conveyed expressions of good-will from the Canadian Government, I proceeded to explain the circumstances and object of my mission.
I pointed out that a few months ago the Canadian Government had received through the Foreign Office in Great Britain, correspondence setting forth the views of the Chinese Minister at Loudon in regard to legislation affecting Chinese immigra tion enacted at the last Session of the Canadian Parliament; that Canada had recently been negotiating with other countries of the Orient concerning immigration, and that when it was decided Canada should he represented on the Opium Commission, which was to meet at Shanghae, it was thought advantage might be taken of that occasion to discuss the subject of emigration with the Chinese authorities. The Chinese Government would understand that the subject of immigration from the Orient as a whole.
The fact that Canada desired to restrict this immigration did not mean that she regarded the peoples of the Orient as inferior to her own. It was, in fact, their superiority in some respects which made them such formidable competitors, nor did the desire for restriction spring from race prejudice. The grounds for restriction were economic and politica).
I pointed out the difference in the standard of living between the peoples of the Orient and the North American Continent, which was an all-important element
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in the competition of the labouring classes, and outlined the political considerations arising out of the agitation for exclusion on the Pacific Coast in both the United States and Canada.
I mentioned that a policy of restriction was essential to the peace, order, and good government of the Dominion; that the main point to be considered was the method by which this restriction could be effected with least embarrassment to the countries concerned. With Japan and India Canada had effected arrangements whereby each of these countries had undertaken to exercise a certain control over its own einigra- tion. With China, up to the present, the method had been different. It had been one of exclusion by means of a capitation tax. The Canadian Government did not wish to discriminate against China- to treat her differently in this regard from other countries of the Orient, and I had come, therefore, to ascertain whether China might desire to herself undertake the restriction of her emigration, and whether, should she be in a position so to do she would be willing to consider an Agreement based on a restriction of her own emigration; that Canada was prepared to consider such an Agreement, and that I had authority to discuss its terms.
Mr. Liang asked if there was this difference in the standard of living between the peoples of the two countrics, would not the best way to remove the difference be to allow the Chinese to enter without restriction, permit free movement everywhere. Wages and prices were gradually rising in China, and labour by emigrating freely would gradually bring about one level in all countries. I replied that this might be quite true, and it illustrated the difficulty which the Canadian people foresaw. It was true that if Chinese labourers came in large numbers to Canada, this levelling process would go on, but by the time the numbers were sufficiently great to effect the result mentioned, Canada would be practically lost to the Canadians altogether. Canadian labour would not be able to maintain its present standard, and it was a duty of government to aid a people in protecting their standard of living. Mr. Liang then asked why all foreigners were not kept out, Italians and others. I replied that Canada admitted peoples who had a standard of living similar to her own, but that restrictions were becoming increasingly great against all such as tended to undermine the existing standards. The Asiatic standard was different from that of other countries.
Mr. Liang asked if it was desired to exclude all labourers, and emphatically declared that if such were the case, it would be useless to discuss matters. There would be no question concerning contract labour, as the Chinese Government was anxious to discourage the emigration of labourers under contract; contract labourers had not been well treated. Free labour, on the other hand, should, he thought, be at liberty to emigrate as it pleased. Notwithstanding this expression of opinion, Mr. Liang intimated it was possible some arrangement might be made, restricting free labour for a time, provision being made for a gradual increase in the numbers to be admitted. He asked if the Chinese Government might be shown Canada's Agree- nient with Japan, alleging that the Government would then be in a position to say whether it could become a party to a similar Agreement.
As to the exclusion of all labourers, I romarked that this was one of the points which should be taken up when we came to discuss the terms of restriction; that there were classes of labour Canada might wish to exclude and others that she might wish only to restrict. As to the Agreement with Japan, it being a confidential document, its terms could not be made public. There could be no objection, however, to its general nature being known, or its provisions, in so far as they had been given to the people of Canada. I then briefly outlined the circumstances which led up to the existing arrangement with Japan, and explained in general terms the nature of the Agreement, taking care to point out that the highly centralized system of regula- tion existing in Japan made possible the kind of arrangement entered into; that to Countries differently organized, an identical arrangement might prove less effective as a means of restriction; that the terms of an Agreement in any case would depend upon the particular circumstances of the country with which it was negotiated. So far as China was concerned, what it would be necessary in the first instance to decide was whether she would be willing to and could restrict her own emigration.
Mr. Liang remarked it was true that Canada could exclude Chinese labour if she wished, she could so legislate, and China could not prevent her, but it would be a violation of Treaty rights for her to exercise that power; the capitation tax was a violation of Treaty. I replied that I thought this was open to argument; that every Treaty had to be read in the light of the circumstances under which it was entered into, and conditions existing at the time it was framed; that Great Britain could never
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